Thursday, September 03, 2009

Gambling in Ohio--Issue 3, guest blog

What can I say? Nothing good, and that's a fact. I hope the voters say no in November. Gambling is a tax on the poor; it makes former Methodist pastors who become governors greedy hypocrites; it brings with it a number of social and economic problems which kicks the cost problem down the road; and oddly enough, a major financial drain on casinos is the money spent on replacing the cushions on stools in front of slot machines--people won’t get up from machines even to go to the bathroom, so yes, it is indeed addictive. Former Governor George Voinovich says it's better to raise taxes than rely on gambling to pay the bills. Buckeye RINO has this to say on the topic.
    "In theory, we can all govern ourselves, with no need for government structures beyond self. In reality, governing ourselves creates dilemmas for no one is an island unto themselves, and the free exercise of one's liberty will often interfere with the free exercise of another person's liberty, thus we create government structures beyond self.

    In theory, the consequences of actions accrue to the individual that decided upon those actions. Reality is much messier. The decisions of individuals reap consequences that are far-reaching in scope.

    As applied to gambling: In theory, there is no need for intervention. Individuals can govern themselves. If they ruin themselves by gambling, they have only themselves to blame. In reality, gambling is not a solitary pursuit. If one engages in gambling, others must be involved. Therefore, there is need for governing principles beyond self. Furthermore, when ruin results from gambling, the ruin is not confined to the persons who participated in gambling. The costs are socialized whether one wishes them to be, or not. Intervention is sought for these reasons.

    Gambling is not an exchange in the sense of a stock trade. What instruments of value are being exchanged in gambling? The gambler is defrauded, and his wealth plundered. The gambler receives nothing of value, so there is no exchange. This is piracy.

    There is a set admission price for entering Cedar Point. Consumers know in advance what they will be paying for the entertainment they receive. The transactions of an amusement park are open and transparent. Likewise for a video game arcade, there is advance knowledge of what one pays and what entertainment one will receive in exchange. Open and transparent. Gamblers have no idea how much "entertainment" they will receive for a set price. Conceivably one gambler can be entertained all day for $20, while another will lose that same $20 within seconds. Casinos are thieves that try to seize all that they can. Casinos are not open, not transparent, which is why they are the preferred venue for money laundering.

    Somali pirates create jobs. Nigerian scammers create jobs. Of course casinos create jobs, but the jobs that are created are not the product of newly created wealth. They are parasitic jobs that feed off the plundered wealth that others created. Similarly, taxes, which are confiscated wealth that others created, also fund jobs. But just as we cannot tax our society into prosperity, we cannot gamble our society into prosperity. Producers are the wealth creators, and casinos aren't producers.

    I believe that laws against scams, fraud, theft, and piracy are legitimate exercises of government power."
You can read his blog here.

58 comments:

Daniel Jack Williamson said...

Thanks for deeming my epistle worthy of quotation. I'm flattered.

Norma said...

"just as we cannot tax our society into prosperity, we cannot gamble our society into prosperity"

Worthy of a t-shirt, bumper sticker or tattooing on the forehead of every politician, federal, state or local.

Anonymous said...

Are you out of your mind? Let me spend my money how I choose. Do you also want to tell me I can't play ring toss at the fair because I don't know how many buys it will take to win a prize? Your argument is full of holes. There are valid reasons to oppose issue 3, but your rational is flawed.

Norma said...

Then list your valid reasons to oppose it.

Anonymous said...

How is this a tax on the poor? Because they will go gamble to get rich quick? The poor can not manage their money with a casino in the state?

I gamble and go to Indiana & Las Vegas to do so currently. I am a responsible middle class citizen. I am quite capable of managing my money and go to the casinos with a preset amount that I am willing to spend, no different than going to Cedar Point for the day. This does not mean I have a gambling problem, nor should I be told that I can not gamble.

I do agree with the Senator Voinivich that the state should not be looking at the potential revenue as the fix all for the budget problems, but it will not hurt to get the extra revenue. Also it will create jobs if the issue is passed, which the last time I checked is not happening much in this state with our unemployment level still rising.

This country was built on an individuals rights. More and more people want to go around and say I know what is best for you.

People can enjoy gambling at a casino with out becoming an addict. You have to use common sense. Sonething most people do not want to do now a daysIf you can not afford to do it then don't do it. No different than somebody that bought a house on an ARM loan. But for those of us who save to go gamble responsibly, why not do it in our state? Why not create jobs here for fellow ohioans? Why not let them build and the counties and states get tax revenue?

Tom said...

Oh Norma, Where to begin???

I am not an avid gambler, I have two scotch and waters a year (one on my birthday and on on New Years)

Gambling is and always will be looked down upon by the pious, teh everpresent do-gooders of the world.

Unless people travel "the straight and narrow", they are doomed.

However, it has been my experience that people know instinctively what is good and bad, but it is up to them to choose. in the 1950's and 60's in the town where I grew up there was a church and a bar on every street corner and they all did well.

I say give people the opportunity to make up their own minds.

AS far as expenditures go in casinos, the cushions on stools in front of slot machines, tooo thin.
Security in the casinos is by far the biggest expenditure. why? Because although they have a "LEGAL" business, there are elements that are out to cheat them.

You may not want to visit a casino, but why should that prevent me from doing so.

I do have a concience, I do not need yours. I like the entertainment value, just like the church fairs that blow through town every summer, which are nothing but floating casinos.

They bring valuable jobs to areas.

I know the argument, they will bring the workers from vegas or new jersey.

Yes they will bring some workers from out of state, but then how many caino managers and dealers are currently in Ohio to draw from. Not many since there are no casinos for them to work at.
But then again, how many house keepers, bartenders, maintenance personnel, security guards, money handlers,etc., will have to be hired locally.

And the casinos will have to be built by someone and they will be local builders,electricians, plumbers, etc.

All of the ills related to gambling are also related to non-gambling pastimes.

Issue three is good for ohions as a whole.

Your arguement about a tax on the poor is also tooo thin. Most of the people who visit casinos are working americans who have discretionary spending money.
they choose to spend it in a casino occasionally instead of forking out $75.oo a head to go to a concert or ballgame.

I know i have more to say but this ha already gon long.

thank you

Tom

Anonymous said...

Michigan, Indiana, West Virginia and PA thank you for your stance Norma. They say 'carry on'!

Anonymous said...

Norma said "Nothing good, and that's a fact." Really? Where are your facts? You posted a lot of opinions, but no hard data studied emperically and documented. I have yet to see the results of any serious study on this matter quoted by "opponents". I do see a lot of the hyperbole that you are mimicing: "Tax on the poor", "It's addictive", etc.

It's your blog, but you might consider adding some facts.

Signed,

Amazed

Anonymous said...

Casinos in Ohio will never succeed unless the anti-smoking law is repealed or modified to allow smoking in these facilities. Don't believe this is true? Visit any casino in Indiana or elsewhere and you will see that 75% of people there are smokers...its part of the gambling culture, along with drinking. Why would someone from Cincinnati, for instance, gamble in Ohio, where they cannot smoke in a public place, when they could drive a few miles to Indiana and have no such restriction. There is a reason that non-smoking areas in casinos are so small...there are very few non-smokers!

Free Bingo said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Norma said...

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Anonymous said...

People are going to gamble weather there is a casino in ohio or not. You think that putting a casino in ohio will make people gamble more?? I don't, when there are casinos just a few short hours away from just about every city in ohio. let them gamble here instead of there.

Anonymous said...

So you think you should decide what to do with our own money? Horrible views.

Anonymous said...

First of all, what business would a person have being in a casino if they dont have money to spend? Second, if that same person was really smart maybe he could turn an application in at the casino and possibly improve his life. Wake up OHIO! Even if all the people employed would be all out of state(which wont happen) THOSE EMPLOYEES WILL PAY OHIO TAXES OUT OF THEIR PAYCHECKS...WITH A CASINO COMES HOTELS...RESTAURANTS..ALL HAVE TO BE BUILT ALL TAX MONEY FOR OUR STATE

Unknown said...

The biggest problem with your view: Your judgement is clouded by religion. Its "written" all over your comment (no pun intended). I'll be the first to admit that a casino is not "the best" answer but with just about all of our nieghboring states and Country having tons of Busses leaving Ohio to go gamble the weekend with them is a HUGE problem. Try not to quote Voinovich, he is a religious asshole whos judgement is also clouded. As you quouted he wants to raise taxes over letting people willingly pay via casinos. It's in your blood to force your beliefs and views down onto others I don't blame you for taking the time to do so down the entire state's throats. Thats just how religious extremests are. You don't find it funny that every time someone or some organization tried to get casinos in ohio the opposing campaigns were always partialy if not fully funded by the churches? Lets not forget that the ohio Lottery also stands to lose alot of money.

In closing YES Gambling in ohio will bring its share of problems but when weighed against our money problems Its a no brainer that we need to be brought up to speed with WV, PA, IN and Canada.

Norma said...

Kyle: No I don't find it funny that churches are are on the forefront of the anti-gambling "extremists." They are often the ones left to pick up the pieces of people's lives. Methodists, of which our flip flopping governor was once a pastor, has been a leader in this, and I'd hardly call them fundamentalists or extremists. Yes, my faith defines my values. And where did you find yours?

Norma

Anonymous said...

People do need to do there own homework on this issue. The adds that are on tv are untrue. The company that is listed on CBS is for a casion supply company not a employment company. There is nothing against freedom of speach but this is getting rediculous...

Pauli said...

Norma, you and Mr. Williamson are both correct. Gambling is a regressive tax, i.e., a tax on people who can least afford it. I especially appreciate his breakdown between theory and practice. I wish the ads against Issue 3, for example, would mention some of these "intangible" items rather than just the issue of jobs which, although valid, is difficult to prove either way. Here's a fact check I found on the topic. Also, here's an article mentioned on Rush yesterday about a recent general decline in gambling.

kenneth in toledo said...

i'm no rocket scientist,but i know most thinking people do to,that the lottery is doing a poor job of funding schools and thats gambling that poor people are into to their disadvantage. gambling does increase crime,breakup families,and other societal problems. i am not a gambler,i am not against gambling,it's going to be done anyway. i am for voting your conscience,whatever it is. don't put me down because i don't think like you. i am against limiting freedoms. and if gambling is voted down,people still have the freedom to go to those other states to gamble.

Anonymous said...

Kenneth, gambling CAN break up families, it CAN cause crime, it CAN cause social problems.

Norma said...

I've visited a number of sites, and have listened to and read the ads--all of which are deceptive, whether pro or con. Do your own research. I've written about abortion, Obama, finances, pit bulls, fashion, TARP, welfare, education, etc., and nothing gets people more heated up than the gambling issue. Where there's smoke. . .

Norma said...

Someone with a gambling blog asked me (nicely by e-mail) if he could present a guest blog. Here's my response:

"Thank you for your nice words, but it seems you haven't read my blog very closely. I invite people to be guests who are informed on issues that matter to me. Gambling is an anathema, so I don't think we'd be a good match for each other. Although I wouldn't support making it illegal, I don't support the state sucking people into a damaging lifestyle, either. Your blog, however, is nicely laid out and easy to read, which is more than I can say for many that I visit."

Anonymous said...

Please take a moment to read this column. Why don't the supporters of Issue 3 ever admit they are talking about Casinos in their advertisements? Because they knnow Ohioans understand that casinnos destroy lives.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2190247/a_vote_for_casinos_and_ohio_issue_3.html?cat=9

Unknown said...

Gambling is not a "tax on the poor". Tax is compulsory, gambling is not.

Also, it's silly to say that Casinos "aren't producers". Do Casino goers leave with a tangible product that was produced? No, but that doesn't mean that Casinos "aren't producers" and that it's nothing but a "tax on the poor".

If that were true then you could say that Movie Theaters, Sporting Events and numerous other things were also a "tax on the poor" and devoid of productivity.

Pauli said...

QKRTHNU: If I go to a movie theater, sporting event or restaurant and spend, say, $100.00 I get whatever anyone else gets for $100.00. A casino is different, like the man points out, and luck determines outcome. You have utterly failed to engage this point. Another one of his points which you obviously miss is that while in theory, casino patrons can all govern themselves it is not so in practice. This is why, following the "if it looks like a duck" line of thinking, we call gambling a "regressive tax".

Anonymous said...

Norma,

I believe you are incorrect to say that "gamblers have no idea how much 'entertainment' they will receive for the price. Each pull of the slot machine is an event unto itself. Therefore, if I'm playing a quarter slot machine That event costs me a quarter. I may win, I may lose, but the event was of a defined duration and cost.

I am against issue 3 because it represents a handout to special interests. I believe such an amendment to our CONSTITUTION is blasphemous. Put a bill out there that awards licenses to the highest bidder and maximizes the state's gain, and I will vote yes.

Unknown said...

Pauli,

"If I go to a movie theater, sporting event or restaurant and spend, say, $100.00 I get whatever anyone else gets for $100.00."

Do you? How do you know?

If one person gets a fantastic meal and the other indigestion I would argue that they didn't get the same thing for their money.

At a sporting event one person may get the enjoyment of seeing their favorite team win while another may be an overly fanatical devotee of the losing team, in which case they leave utterly depressed. It's also possible that the game is so boring and amateurish that your favorite team wins and you are still left unhappy with the results.

One person may really enjoy the opening night of the latest blockbuster movie while another leaves feeling cheated out of their time and money.

A casino is not much different.

Of course the important thing is that with all of the above you could opt to do something else with your money, or simply stay home and keep your money.

If you have the option to keep your money then it's not a tax. Comparisons between gambling loses and tax is spurious at best which was the point I was trying to make in the first place.

Pauli said...

One person may really enjoy the opening night of the latest blockbuster movie while another leaves feeling cheated out of their time and money.

A casino is not much different.


Give or take anywhere from $1.00$50,000.00 or so.

If you have the option to keep your money then it's not a tax.

You are right in the very strictest sense. However we are using it in a broader sense vis-à-vis who is hurt most by the gambling industry. The fact that you have this bee in your bonnet about the meaning of the word tax shows just how much you wish to avoid the practical realities as concerns the discussion.

Pauli said...

Excuse me, should be "Give or take anywhere from $1.00 to $50,000.00 or so."

Unknown said...

To be honest, its going to happen either way, and thats really not the arguement im trying to make, but this isnt the 80s and this isnt mob vegas and underground gambling, its a casino.

Nobody has census proof that areas with casinos are hurt at all, Ive been stationed while I was in the military in a few areas that have establishments like this and the surrounding area is wonderful, plenty to do.

Not to mention not everyone gambles away their life savings just because its there.

This same logic would state that anyone selling guns are a detriment to society, that walmart should be closed because it sells harmful products and COULD be used improperly.

We all have rights and minds, were all free individuals and thats what the country is founded on, and if we treat everyone with the worst case scenario outlook where are we left. This isnt a psudochristian monarchy, its a democracy. The casinos wont improve the quality of life that much more beyond what a walmart or a fast food store would, but it will bring jobs and entertainment. Thats it. Its not the devil, just a night out and a few less dollars when you leave, hell if youre smart youll leave with the same as you came.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, but with that same respect take religion and your overdeveloped sense of nobility. The shows are good, the food is fantastic, drinks are cheap, and its JOBS.

glenn said...

If I spend $100 for a dinner and a movie, I might get a good dinner and I might see a good movie. Or I might not. At least in a casino I know what I'm going to get - a game of chance where the odds against me.

If you're opposed to casinos you must be furious over the gambling already being conducted every day in Ohio... You're opposed to church bingo - right? How about festivals on church property where you can play blackjack with giant cards? Horse racing? Charity "monte carlo" nights? The state lottery (I think those scratch offs are as bad a crack)... How often is that keno game played anyway - every few minutes?

This isn't about legalizing gambling - it's about WHO is allowed to conduct gambling operations. Why should the church and the state get all the action? Why not open it up to the free market? The gambling consumer may get a better deal with real casinos.

And don't forget the only way to really ban gambling is to unplug the internet and seal the state borders so no one can leave. If you think we can ban internet gambling you might as well try to legislate the weather.

Let adults be responsible for themselves. Build the casinos & lets move on!

Pauli said...

Yes, I'm totally against church Bingo. I think it makes Catholics look retarded, and I'm Catholic. I've told people as much, including priests.

Anonymous said...

I haved lived in Las Vegas for the past 11 years and just moved back to Ohio I read everyones comments and everyone is argueing over speculation of the arrival of Casinos. Maybe I can help....

First off I will say that placing Casinos here in Ohio is the worst thing that could ever happen to these family based communities. I can understand some comments that say some people will go to the Casinos and only spend the money that the can (or have the ability) to lose. HOWEVER that is not where the bulk of the money comes from, it comes from the people who have no business in the casino to begin with. There is an expression in business that goes- The rich will make you poor and the poor will make you rich.

If the less fortunate lose what money they are given on the first by the the fifth of the month. How to you think they will act by the 20th of the month. Here comes the crime against people. I am a huge gambler so dont think that these comments are from some holy roller.

We really dont want these Casinos in our backyard. If you want to gamble I dont believe that it is more than a two hour drive from any point in Ohio. Lets keep the Buckeye state safe!

Signed

Chuck R

Unknown said...

There are a lot of arguments being made both for and against Issue 3. If you would like find out what the facts are behind both sides' arguments, go to www.whatdotheystandfor.org.

It's a nonpartisan site. We check the facts, you make your decision.

Norma said...

In 2003, President Obama, then an Illinois state senator, said he believed the "moral and social cost of gambling" was potentially "devastating" and that using gaming as a source of revenue or for economic development was "irresponsible." But notice the squish words, "potentially," and "irresponsible." You could build a few more casinos on those few words. He's probably flipped on this one as has Strickland.

Anonymous said...

I cannot find a breakdown of the 34,000 jobs. There should be about 8,000 per casino. Estimates seem to be: 1000 house maintenance (jobs for Ohioans); 2000 jobs for Ohioans for casino construction (2year positions); 500 professional (dealers, machine operators, slot technicians, odds calculators, executive staff, lawyers, odds calculators, etc. (non-Ohio jobs hired by Casino operators who can be trusted and relied on; 1000 jobs in the communities (supplies, food cleaning, repair, etc.) jobs for Ohioans. This adds up to 4,000 jobs for Ohioans and 4500 total jobs What are the other 3500 jobs per casino? Another thing that bothers me is that Ohio only gets 33 1/3 per cent of the winnings. If the winnings are $1.0 billion, this would not cover the needs of the Ohio deficit. How can we guarantee Ohio will meet its budget needs? Any increase in direct taxes would guarantee that the deficit would be covered. I do NOT like tax increases, but a tax increase would guarantee that Ohio needs were met. Indeed, non-gamblers could probably procure more for the Ohio economy by spending their money on tv's play stations. movies ball games and other pleasures than Ohio will get from the 33 13% of the casino's declared earnings. We cannot guarantee casino winnings. Also, many patrons of nearby, out of state gamblers would remain loyal to their old casinos; they were like homes to them, that is where their friends gamble. Until I get answers to this breakdown, I must vote NO. If you can give me this breakdown, my friends and I could possibly vote YES, but not without the breakdown.
What are your thoughts on casinos? I feel that overall, Ohio gains nothing and loses much
Thomas J. Bartol

Anonymous said...

Check out an article that ran in The Globe and Mail, a newspaper from north of the border, that spotlights how the predatory gambling trade makes most of their profits from out-of-control people. This report comes on top of Wall Street Journal reporter Christina Binkley revealing that casino companies like Harrah’s make 90% of their profits from 10% of the people who use their product.

The state Lottery’s business model is nearly the same. A national commission report sponsored by Congress and the President showed that the top 5% of lottery users account for 54 % of total sales (nearly $4000 or more each) and the top 20% provide 82% of total sales ($1600 or more each).

Les Bernal of Stop Predatory Gambling (e-mail)

Anonymous said...

The people should decide on casinos and that is what is being done. The fundamental problem I have is the "premises" under which the proponents ask me to support this. Premise A -- it will create 34,000 jobs. Really? 4 casinos are going to employ roughly 8 to 9,000 jobs each? Hard to believe unless they are reaching to the extra police and fire protection, employees of gambling addiction treatment centers, and temporary construction jobs. OK. I know that figures can lie and liars can figure -- Just don't ask me to accept that as a reason we should support casinos. Premise B -- "....and construction will start immediately".. I've worked in commercial real estate development most of my life and all too well know the lengthy time line to create plans, gain permits and approvals, bid out and commence construction on a 10 million project, let alone one many times that size. Unless someone has foolishly invested hundreds of thousands in front-loaded plans and permits without any assurance of being able to build, then construction will most certainly not start "immediately". That's just hogwash. And if it does start immediately, it tells you two things. One is that local jurisdictions are altering or waiving all sorts of requirements of the planning and zoning and permitting process (and under what authority?); and TWO, the ownership factions anticipate making some really huge profits to justify spending that sort of money totally speculatively (but then, we already knew that didn't we?). So ask me to support casinos, just don't ask me to do so under the premise of greatly embellished false claims of jobs and immediate construction. I'm not buying it and you insult my intelligence in asking me to do so.

Pauli said...

Unless someone has foolishly invested hundreds of thousands in front-loaded plans and permits without any assurance of being able to build, then construction will most certainly not start "immediately"....

Exactly right, what you mean is that all these 34,000 jobs are not going to appear immediately.

Why are the police supporting this? Security jobs = job security.

Unknown said...

Of course it's a tax on the poor. I agree with it.

Pauli said...

Wow, thanks for sharing. J must be short for "Jerk".

Unknown said...

Well, Pauli, how else can one explain the National Gambling Impact Commission found that 80 percent of gambling revenue comes from households with incomes of less than $50,000 a year? The reason I'm for it is these people use state services disproportionately and yet don't pay for them. Now they can. Win/win.

Pauli said...

people use state services disproportionately and yet don't pay for them

Yeah, you and I pay for them. All the more reason for us to want them to use their funding wisely.

Anonymous said...

Cable channel 2 just carried a discussion of issue 3 hosted by Kent State. One gentleman who was opposed to issue 3 kept stating that slot machine wagers would not be taxed. Perusing the web briefly lead me to several references to this "loophole". However, looking at the full text of the amendment, http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/ballotboard/2009/3-text.pdf, I see no such loophole. I am not an legal expert. The way I read it, "gross casino revenue" would include money spent in the slots. Can anybody explain what the opponents are talking about in this particular objection? Not to tax the slots would miss a huge portion of the potential but I just don't see that in the text. Thanks. -Marty

Anonymous said...

I understand the bill will also make bingo night, other charitable gambling events illegal. They sure do not like competition.

Anonymous said...

I take issue with anyone telling me what is or is not good for me based upon their moral or religious beliefs. The fact is that this state would greatly benefit from the additional revenue casinos would bring in both in jobs and in tax revenue, to argue otherwise is plain ignorant.

The smokers and drinkers in Cuyahoga county PAID for the two new stadiums to be built and now we can't even attend a game and have a cigarette thanks to self righteous voters telling us what is or is not good for the masses. You have a problem with me polluting the air smoking? If you take that stance you better not drive a car. It irks me to no end to see such moral hypocrites try to influence what others should do with their lives, if you don't think the lord wants you to gamble, then stay home, don't tell me what MY god wants me to do, because the two of you have obviously never met!

Scott said...

"Well, Pauli, how else can one explain the National Gambling Impact Commission found that 80 percent of gambling revenue comes from households with incomes of less than $50,000 a year?" - J

Perhaps that is because people that are most likely to visit casinos, just as many other places to spend "disposable income" are single income households, ie. single people without the responsibilities of families. I happen to fall into that demographic and am in my 40's and single. I earn a good living and can afford to go blow a few bucks at a casino if I choose. I also have friends that are married with children that could afford to go to a casino if they choose to but they would rather spend their money going to the zoo with the kids, I haven't been to the zoo in 20 years. My point is, the numbers can be skewed anyway you want them to be to support an argument.

Unknown said...

Sorry if this is a duplicate post.
I vote tomorrow and would really like imput before I go vote!
When I first heard about Issue 3 I was against it. Then I read some and decided it was about time Ohio got it's piece of the Casino pie and changed my mind. Now, the day before I go and vote, I still have questions that have not been answered, even though I have read about all I could on the issue.
1)Why does it have to be put into our constitution?
2)Why does it have to designate where the casino in each city has to be built? I can think of at least 4 better locations for the Toledo casino, but none of them are allowed to be considered.
3)I read the language of the the issue and it clearly states that "Gross revenue" is all money wagered (Cash wagered may or may not be included, depending on how you interpret the language!) less all winnings paid out. So, if the casino's take $1,000,000,000 in from wagers and pay out at a rate of 50% to winners then that would leave taxable revenue at %500,000,000 and income to the state at $165,000,000. If you almost double the casino's take from wagers like the estimates are then the states income will almost double and the casino's profit almost doubles. So in about 3 years the casino's will have earned back all of the monies they paid to the state for licenses and the minimum money the state is requiring them to spend to develope the 4 casinos, if all 4 casinos are built. The $165,000,000 would then be divided as such:
A)$84.15 million to counties, by population
B)$56.1 million to schools, by student population
C)$8.25 million to the host city
D)$4.95 million to finance the commission
E)$4.95 million to race tracks in Ohio
f)$3.3 million to state law enforcement
g)$3.3 million for gambling addiction
Double those numbers if the estimate of almost $2 billion wagered annually is reached. Now, My question. What if the casinos are not all built? The location for the casino in Toledo is not ideal and the proposed builder of the casino owns Toledo Raceway Park. The way the taxes are distributed, the majority of the the money would go to "The Three Cs" (Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinati) due to population concentration.
4)As an example of income and taxes for the 3 casinos in Detroit shows a gross revenue of $1.36 billion but only 20.85% paid in taxes. 11.13% is the cities income from taxes. Is this the taxes the casino paid or does it include taxes on wages of the employees and other taxes not related to wagers made by patrons? If the 8.9% that the state got from taxes is calculated similar to the way the calculations are made per the language in issue 3, either they are taxed at a lower rate or pay out a higher percentage to winners?
Can you answer any of these concerns before I go vote tomorrow?
Like I said, I was against it, then I was for it, Now I'm on the fence. I believe that casino gambling is going to get appoval in Ohio sooner or later, but is this the way to go?

Norma said...

You can't go wrong voting against it Shawkii; and they'll be back anyway if it doesn't pass this time, just like they always do. So if you change your mind after you vote no, you'll still be able to vote for it later. But if you vote yes, and it passes, and you see the really negative results, you'll be ashamed of your part in the travesty.

Scott said...

And the sky will fall! The reason it has to be written into the constitution is that currently gambling in the state is illegal and for any casino bill to pass it would have to amend that part of the constitution. It may be true that the "fees" for licensing the casinos could be higher but the fact is that these fees are being paid by the people willing to spend the money to build them, not by the tax payers like the stadiums were. The taxes on revenues would come from tax payers but only ones that spend their money at them. The main fact to remember is that any tax revenue paid to the state by these casinos is a 100% increase from what we have now. If I drive to Detroit and spend $1000 over a weekend, NONE of that money comes back to Ohio, its gone to Detroit. Its great to see someone actually do research and have question based on facts instead of this nay-saying coming from the bible belt. Vote the way your brains tell you to and you can't go wrong whichever way you go.

Norma said...

Scott, from what I've seen of Detroit's problems, they need all the help they can get. If gambling money will help them, be my guest, but it doesn't look like it's working. And is that really the only reason you drive that far?

Norma said...

Scott, from what I've seen of Detroit's problems, they need all the help they can get. If gambling money will help them, be my guest, but it doesn't look like it's working. And is that really the only reason you drive that far?

Scott said...

You're missing the point, WE need that money here, its lost revenue. Define gambling money please ... are you including lottery? BINGO? Why do you think the church is so against gambling in Ohio, because it will take away from them getting their cut.

I would have no issue driving a couple of hours to go to Detroit or Windsor Canada to go to their casinos, what is a 2 hour drive, especially if you make a weekend out of it and stay for a couple of days. Heck you can go on your choice of about 6 bus tours EVERY weekend leaving the Cleveland area to any neighboring states casinos, PA, NY, MI, or even Canada for about $50 and they even give you $25 in chips to use at the casino and a meal. Casinos want people there and are willing to spend money to get them because in the end they WILL make money (the casinos that is), the odds are in their favor. I will personally go gambling once or maybe twice a year, but I treat it like a vacation no different than going to Cedar Point, I take what I plan on losing, if I get lucky and win a few bucks, that's gravy.

But this conversation is about freedom of choice and the opportunity for our state to get a piece of income that is currently being lost to our neighboring states.

Apuestas de Baloncesto En Linea said...

I disagree that gambling is not an exchange. One gets a fair portion of excitement and entertainment while gambling. It can be an addiction, but it can also be a hobby. People spend enormous amount of money on their hobbies. It's a really personal decision - to gamble or not to gamble.

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